Grand Prix Series S9 R15- Japan Gp (Suzuka) - Incidents

feature race ,fucking cocknetion lost in the middle of the race , made my championship over

I have nothing to report but to ask Arek
Take a look at replay sprint race, lap 2, corner which was in my opinion 100% mine and you dived like a stuka bomber - how do you see it? I say it's your fault and you should be penalized by taking points and giving them to me.

Incidents I saw (in front of me, or in my mirrors) during the race and/or that I was directly involved at:

SPRINT RACE:

- Lap 1, T2: Fox & Quentin (contact)
- Lap 1, T2: Tony & Riaan (contact)
- Lap 2, T1: Luft & Arek (contact)
- Laps 6-7, Pit Entrance: Denis, Sexy and a few other guys (contact) *

FEATURE RACE:

- Lap 1, T1: several cars (contact)
- Lap 1, Hairpin: Sexy & Tom (contact) **
- Lap 2, Hairpin: several cars (???)
- Lap 2, Spoon: Tom & Denis (contact)
- Laps 5-6, Pit Stop: Sexy & Tom (contact) ***
- Laps 10-11, Pit Entrance: Sexy & lau (contact..?) ****

...

* = I wasn't expecting Denis stuck and blocking (not his fault) the pit entrance.. Then I tried to brake and avoid him as much as I could, but my car also spun and then I was also stuck and blocking the pit entrance - some guys came from behind and 'cleared' the way..

** = I braked and tried to move my car to the right, because I saw Tom on the inside, but my car went straight when I braked - then a contact happened and I ended up out of the track - probably just a race incident..

*** = I had to go reverse and also got damage and time lost with that. I don't know what Tom was doing there - there are the Fast Lane and the Slow Lane in the pit lane and according to our rules, on a diagram made by Tom himself, that's clearly a 'NO':



**** = I spun trying to get to the pits. Then I went back on the track a few meters and also got 'stuck' when trying to turn to enter the pits - obviously, I was trying to move my car as fast as I could, so I wouldn't prejudice anyone.. but then lau was trying to enter the pits and I'm not sure if I got him damage or of the game didn't compute the contact on his car..

...

Here are my own replay files for the Stewards:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/7ftvsos2oy8td36

I'm sorry about your spin, Luft but you went like a pussy there

At first you let Quentin pass even though you were at the front at the entrance to the corner but it's not my problem though

I saw you side by side with him in the middle so I thought you would continue your defense driving around the outside like a man so I decided to sneak in for the gap you left me on the inside behind Quentin but instead of that you slowed down like I mentioned already who and rapidly turned to the inside which was already taken by me and spun yourself hitting me 

Of course my move was agresive but we both would've gone through there together if you had known what was goign around you and hadn't got panic fighting with Quentin

And get Whatsapp again so I can show you how I saw it from my perspective so you could see how erratic your driving was

I've got one incident to report.


Feature race: 
Lap 1, final chicane - me vs Marcel

He locked up and overshot the first apex, took it wide. I made it side by side being still right on the racing line before the next left hander and then he pushed me off to the outside making me lose a place for Quentin.

Normally I wouldn't even bother to report it but after that when trying to overtake Quentin back I spun at the harpin causing a multiple collision and then heard complaints about it so I'm reporting it to show the people that I was supposed to be in a completly differnt place at the time chasing Lau probably and it wasn't my fault I found myself there   (stewards will judge it).

Well, I didn't do anything wrong there. I went wide, then had the inside line for the 2nd apex, which I took. You could've backed off at any point of time when you saw I had the inside... So yeah, it is your fault that you found yourself in that position. I only remember than Tony vs me discussion when i was on the outside, i was the one who should've backed out...

I don't know why would I have to back off since I was within the racing line all the time (unlike you in Spa vs Tony and also here). The only thing I had to do was not taking the second apex tight to leave you space since you were there which I did and was expecting the same from you after that. We would've left the corner without even toughing each other but you went as if were alone on track.

Sexy cuts across me in the braking zone, he goes diagonally, I won't accept blame for this, it's just a race incident imo.



I knew where my pit box was from first race, I knew it was early in the pit lane so that's why I used the slow lane. But as you can see there are about 4 cars in front of me obscuring my view. I can't even see Gustavo until I'm already on collision course (in a wet pit lane on slicks). Apologies though because it's my fault.



Incident with Riaan - IMO he must know I am there, but he leaves door wide open. IMO I am close enough to attempt a pass (almost touching his ass) but he turns into me 2 times! If he relented after 1st turn in he wouldn't have spun IMO (also lag?)



Lau bad rejoin first race lap 5 - he must have seen us coming!!

Justice was served as you ended behind me Arek at the end . I wasn't sure about car handling since I was driving with your set as it was better than mine , but I had some 20min to practice with it. Anyways, I wanted your opinion on this, and I need to install that shit on my new cell

I sent as soon as I got it from Denis.  The same way he sent me after getting it from Tom... 

I hope my opinion satisfy you
Once again,  If I was you I would've been defending the outside vs Quentin (and versus everyone else except Marcel who would push me out at the end) 

Here you can see how I do it, Luft


And at 1:02 there is sth for Marcel to learn how to drive fair

Arek wrote:Here you can see how I do it, Luft


And at 1:02 there is sth for Marcel to learn how to drive fair

This is just unbelievable, seriously. People here tend to twist things to the way they need it, as simple as that. I was on the inside, I had no reason to back off obviously. Or did I have to back off? If so, please give me back my Spa win. I obviously had priority for the next corner as I was on the inside, just like Antonio was on the inside on Spa. And if you're saying I was off the racing line in Spa, then I really wonder about your line into bus stop, which would be approaching on the inside. I was alongside you on the inside, you braking would've avoided all of this. 

You're looking for excuses for your other incidents, not more. In Spa you demanded that I back off when I was on the outside, but now it's obviously different eh? If you think you can hang around the outside when you can't it's not my problem is it? I know how to drive fair, but if you expect me to back off like a pussy, you're wrong. Btw, you still had two wheels on the track, it's just that the kerb slowed you down... 

Anyways, pointless bickering but you could try and stop sidewhacking me by telling me to learn how to drive fairly, if something just didn't plan out like you think it would. 

Here some examples btw:
Abu Dhabi, Button vs Verstappen (Button had inside, Verstappen went off the track because he didn't back off)
Monza 2013, Alonso vs Webber (Alonso had inside, Webber backed off, instead of hanging it around the outside again)

My joystick is now in age and sometimes it reacts without moving the pad, while practicing I went off the track on the straight . So in corners it can be tricky, that's why my driving looks erratic, to be even more funny i bought new joystick but the gear change buttons are analog.....the most stupid thing I ever encountered - gave it to my brother. 
I probably need to adjust sensitivity, dead zone and so on

ToCGambler wrote:You're looking for excuses for your other incidents, not more. In Spa you demanded that I back off when I was on the outside, but now it's obviously different eh? 

Of course it is different. I don't even know why you're bringing the Spa incident back as if it had sth to do with this. Did you see me cut the chicane to gain or mentain a position? I didn't.
And btw, talking about Spa... Just take a look at the video:

I bet you will say Alonso had no space and had to cut the corner just like you in Spa vs Tony.

Here you can even hear him crying through the radio that Kubica pushed him out 
And then a radio message by Kubica who calmly says that he had overtaken him out of the track...

And what was the outcome? Penalty for Alonso for cutting the chicane and overtaking over track limits! How can you explain that?


In Suzuka at the place where you didn't leave me space If there was a nice tarmac runoff area and I chose to go there to overtake you I would get a penalty too. That would be what Verstapen did in the example given by you. He used the runoff area to gain adventage over Button and of course he got a penalty for that   
But in Suzuka as you can see I didn't gain or mantain any place but lost one.


Webber vs Alonso. Well... Webber could do whatever he wanted. He chose to back off and that's it. He could've tried to keep it side by side but he knew there was gravel in which he could get stuck and end the race so even a penalty to Alonso (in case he would push him out) wouldn't make him happy in such a situation so he chose what he thought was better for him

Like I said Arek, this bickering is pointless. you had enough space, you were with 2 wheels on the track at all times but eventually got stuck on the kerb. If you hang it right around the outside, it's not my problem. You went for a move, but couldn't complete it, as simple as that. I just held my line, which was influenced by locking up into the first apex. You then thought there was space on the outside, but there wasn't. My line was influenced and I carried on with that line. Just after the apex, you saw my line and that I was significantly ahead of you and that there was little space on the outside. You carried on with your line, and paid for it. If you have a look, you had the slower exit and I almost passed you completely and you still didn't consider to brake. Like Tom once put it, the rule forcing off the track normally does not apply, if someone optimistically and desperately hangs it around the outside.

And about Spa, yeah my penalty was right, but Tony forced me off the track without even getting a warning, that's the joke about it. And now you would like a penalty for me, although in Spa you didn't want one for Tony, huh? I smell bias....

ToCGambler wrote:Like I said Arek, this bickering is pointless. you had enough space, you were with 2 wheels on the track at all times but eventually got stuck on the kerb.

Are we the Moto GP or what? Cars need 4 wheels to be on track as far as I know 
Imagine yourslef being pushed out like that but with the difference there would be a wall and you would hit it and lose the wheel. Then someone would say: "hey you still had two wheels on track!" I guess you would 100% ok with that... 

Like Tom once put it, the rule forcing off the track normally does not apply, if someone optimistically and desperately hangs it around the outside.

The only thing that I can see was desperate in that situation was you desperately trying to mentain your position after throwing yourself out of the racing line thinking that now you can push everyone off track as you think you were in Spa.

And about Spa, yeah my penalty was right, but Tony forced me off the track without even getting a warning, that's the joke about it. And now you would like a penalty for me, although in Spa you didn't want one for Tony, huh? I smell bias....

So tell the real stewards it was also a joke that neither Kubica nor Raikkonen didn't get "even a warning" for forcing off track accordingly Alonso and Hamilton  

In case you forgot:

A car is considered to be off the track when more than 2 wheels are off the track... This obviously also applies for off-track overtakes. 

If I get a penalty for this, this would only underline the inconsistency in the penalties you award and obviously a clear bias. Look at Spa, where there was a car moving twice and forcing someone off the track, preventing an overtake on Kemmel: Your argument as far as I remember: "He didn't leave more room than I did [...]," and you ended up giving a warning or even no penalty, can't remember. Tony pushed me clearly off and deliberately impeded me by crowding me against and even beyond the edge of the track, he got no penalty because it would've been my task to back off, rather than get pushed off and leave the track. Now, similar situation but all of a sudden your own rules don't apply anymore? That's called inconsistency, something the real stewards in F1 do aswell, and which they're hated for... 

But yeah, if the stewards think a penalty is appropriate in this situation.... This shouldn't be more than a warning, but yeah... I guess i'll have to wait till 1 day prior to the race or even on race day for them to be published, anyways. If you complain about an incident like that, which was nothing major, then you must be very desperate...

But no worries, you're likely to not having to investigate any further incidents caused by me for the coming season, and therefore no crying either, since I am currently likely to leave by the end of this season. Was a more or less good season to gather experience in rFactor with a nice learning curve, but I obviously brought big troublewith me, with several incidents etc. and a conflict with Tom aswell which surely didn't help the atmosphere in this league. I'll see how Austin goes first before I make my decision whether I leave or not. Anyways, see you then. Again, this discussion is pointless, because it is neither me nor you who make the decisions, so I'll just wait again.... Like always lol...

I want to say something(s) about this incident - simply because I think it's a good discussion we should have here and hopefully AVOID other discussions like this in the future..

But seriously..

I think what Marcel did was not 'ilegal' and I also think that if I was in Arek's place, I would've simply backed off - but now let me explain why I think these things...

As we see in real life, there are LOTS of moves like that, where the guy (totally or partially) in front takes his own line (whatever line he wants to take) and the guy (totally or partially) behind is 'obligated' to take whatever line is left, making the decision of insisting on the overtake attempt, risking his whole race... or not - and then, in case something goes 'wrong' to the guy behind, the guy in front can only hope for the stewards to consider that 'legal' and not give him (guy in front) a penalty or anything (and then we saw various cases where the driver in front GOT a penalty and some cases where they didn't)..

Ok.

BUT...

Here in our league, we've always tried (at least some of the 'older guys' - I mean, 'older' in terms of how long they've been in the league and racing together, against each other, even before the league was created, about 5 years ago)... we've always tried to race and compete against each other in the most possible clean, fair, honest, 'nice' and fun ways - meaning, we would never try or do 'dirty' or 'too dangerous' moves towards each other, just to get a place, or a win.

For example, we would never 'throw' (dive bomb, as some would say) our cars inside a corner, KNOWING we could cause a crash and/or throw someone else out of the track, just to get a place... Just like we would never 'block' an overtake attempt by moving our cars towards our opponents on the very last second, or simply forcing them out of the track...

But I'm talking about guys like me, Arek, Joe, Fox, Tony, Alex, Juan and a few other ones...
That's how WE drive, play and compete. This is how we think it's FUN.

So, if we are racing against each other, we know EXACTLY what we can do and what we can't and also what to expect the other guy to do as well.

Totally different when we are racing against guys like lau, Marcel and a few other ones - and NO, I'm NOT saying this in a negative way or suggesting these guys are unfair, or dirty, ok?
Stay with me and you'll understand what I mean...

So... I know not everyone here thinks the same (as me and the 'nicer guys') and some guys are just as aggressive as the drivers in real life, always standing on the very edge of what's considered legal and what's not.

And yes, they HAVE the 'right' to do that (as long as they stay in the 'legal' side, no matter how aggressive they are), but at the same time, it's easy to understand why the 'nicer guys' would complain about some of the 'too aggressive' moves, that could end with someone out of the track, or spinning, or even crashing...

So, even if some of those moves are 'legal' by the rules.. I myself think that HERE IN OUR LEAGUE, we should ALWAYS put the FUN of driving and competing in first place - more than the 'winning at all costs' mindset.

And yes, even the 'nicer guys' are still pretty aggressive (and have won LOTS of races and Titles here - even being 'nice' on the track - which proves you don't need to be stupidly aggressive to win races and Titles) and I've always loved to fight against them (at least with some of the previous mods, where I was somewhat competitive compared with them - differently than right now, where the mod how it is now, simply didn't fit me and vice-versa) and we had LOTS of amazing, exciting and so much fun fights, where we've ALWAYS left at least 1 car width to each other, NEVER forced one another off the track or did ANY kind of dirty moves (and yes, sometimes incidents still happen(ed) anyway, but they are/were literally INCIDENTS and not some crazy attempt of trying a too risky or barely legal move) and... jah... sometimes you win, sometimes you lose and... THAT'S also part of the fun - so what?! No big deal!!..

So anyway... last, but not least... I still hope that most drivers here could have this 'Having Fun Above All Else' mindset in our future races, where it's OBVIOUSLY ok to be aggressive and etc, but just TRY to NEVER play 'dirty' with the other guys (even if what you're doing is 'legal' by the rules - jah, it can still be 'dirty' anyway) and then winning or losing, it's all good as long as the drivers fighting are all having fun!

Winning should be PART of the fun (even if it's the biggest part) - that's ok.
But it seems to some people, 'fun' means ONLY 'winning' and winning means EVERYthing, so... jah... whatever...

Oh the classic. Sexy comes along with his essay when they are always the least needed... 
Now you made "Lau, Marcel and a few other guys" leave the league again 

BTW I would like to clarify one thing, Marcel. I'm not crying about the incident itself (I've been pushed out of the track like that many times and never had such discussion) but about your attitude after his incident with Tony from Spa. I remember the long discussion about that incident we had in the admins penalty thread and as far as I could understend your frustration and defence line (which was pretty ok and solid I must admit), what paid my attention was you saying stuff like:

Alright, I'm gonna do this the unsportmanslike way then, I'm sorry but if he cries about forcing me off, I'm gonna cry about other things aswell...

So obviously forcing other ppl off the track is a nice thing to do if you're frustrated and can't get past, since they will be penalized. If that is true, I will remember that for future races...

I think I don't need to say any more than this, do I!? If I would've done this, it would've been considered a divebomb and he legitimately went off the track eh? F'cking hell... I will remember this for Monza, when there'll be some pretty hard braking points.

If you could somehow include this in the rules either now unofficially or next season officially that would be great? Because I will from now on keep this in mind for my overtakes, I've been quite conservative in that respect so far...

Of course these are just sententions out of context and you were angry but everyone can see it wasn't anything positive but only bitterness, doggedness and lust of revenge (I'm glad I could learn a few new words in English now) 


So summing up I'm not upset about the incident itself. I don't even think what you did was super wrong or sth. As I said I've been involved in spots like that many times and if sth didn't go according to my plan I could always explain it to myself like: "well, he might've not seen me", "he thought the track was wider" or "it was just a misjudgement, everyone can make a mistake, even I do sometimes"  or "I should've backed off", or "he didn't expect such a brilliant move by me, I will forgive him"  or "it's Lau and he always has the right to go first" and so on adn so on... But it applies mostly to less experienced drivers that I of course respect too.


But here it's different. You're a very good driver who as I consider knows what is going on around when racing so also that time you were fully aware of the situation and you could've left me that little space on the exit if you only wanted and "the crown wouldn't fall from your head" (just a little Polish saying). Even if you didn't (although I'm still thinking you should after losing the racing line due to your own mistake) as I mentioned I wouldn't cry about it but knowing "the background" I presented in the quotations and putting all pieces together I honestly think you just applied your threats coded between the lines and that's what I don't like. How it really was only you know.

according to Sexy's novel, I am somewhere between a fair driver and a bad driver 

my opinion of Marcel vs Arek is that Marcel fucked up the corner, outbraking himself. In that situation you lose the right to the racing line IMO and you should carefully get back up to speed and give space to anyone around you. It would be different of Marcel was defending and had driven a normal line.

Actually, Tom.. I would've put you in the 'nicer drivers' list as well, if you were still the same guy we used to race against in Battlestats and at the 'early days' of the league, but right now - and I'm NOT saying you're an 'unfair driver', or anything like that - you're just... 'not that nice' (?!) anymore, which is a shame... I miss racing against THAT 'T McKay', to be honest..

And yes, Arek, EVERYthing I say is always a 100% pointless & stupid - I should've known - my bad.

Now you guys just go on with your 'not pointless & stupid at all' discussion, please - sorry to interrupt and sorry for existing.

[/slowly getting back inside the bushes, to my insignificant existence, at the corner of the scene...]

Come on. I was just joking. Everyone likes your essays 

(I was just being ironic, seu juvenil - just like on the pic above... - I love you... not.)

Sexy Brigadeiro wrote:I want to say something(s) about this incident - simply because I think it's a good discussion we should have here and hopefully AVOID other discussions like this in the future..

But seriously..

I think what Marcel did was not 'ilegal' and I also think that if I was in Arek's place, I would've simply backed off - but now let me explain why I think these things...

As we see in real life, there are LOTS of moves like that, where the guy (totally or partially) in front takes his own line (whatever line he wants to take) and the guy (totally or partially) behind is 'obligated' to take whatever line is left, making the decision of insisting on the overtake attempt, risking his whole race... or not - and then, in case something goes 'wrong' to the guy behind, the guy in front can only hope for the stewards to consider that 'legal' and not give him (guy in front) a penalty or anything (and then we saw various cases where the driver in front GOT a penalty and some cases where they didn't)..

Ok.

BUT...

Here in our league, we've always tried (at least some of the 'older guys' - I mean, 'older' in terms of how long they've been in the league and racing together, against each other, even before the league was created, about 5 years ago)... we've always tried to race and compete against each other in the most possible clean, fair, honest, 'nice' and fun ways - meaning, we would never try or do 'dirty' or 'too dangerous' moves towards each other, just to get a place, or a win.

For example, we would never 'throw' (dive bomb, as some would say) our cars inside a corner, KNOWING we could cause a crash and/or throw someone else out of the track, just to get a place... Just like we would never 'block' an overtake attempt by moving our cars towards our opponents on the very last second, or simply forcing them out of the track...

But I'm talking about guys like me, Arek, Joe, Fox, Tony, Alex, Juan and a few other ones...
That's how WE drive, play and compete. This is how we think it's FUN.

So, if we are racing against each other, we know EXACTLY what we can do and what we can't and also what to expect the other guy to do as well.

Totally different when we are racing against guys like lau, Marcel and a few other ones - and NO, I'm NOT saying this in a negative way or suggesting these guys are unfair, or dirty, ok?
Stay with me and you'll understand what I mean...

So... I know not everyone here thinks the same (as me and the 'nicer guys') and some guys are just as aggressive as the drivers in real life, always standing on the very edge of what's considered legal and what's not.

And yes, they HAVE the 'right' to do that (as long as they stay in the 'legal' side, no matter how aggressive they are), but at the same time, it's easy to understand why the 'nicer guys' would complain about some of the 'too aggressive' moves, that could end with someone out of the track, or spinning, or even crashing...

So, even if some of those moves are 'legal' by the rules.. I myself think that HERE IN OUR LEAGUE, we should ALWAYS put the FUN of driving and competing in first place - more than the 'winning at all costs' mindset.

And yes, even the 'nicer guys' are still pretty aggressive (and have won LOTS of races and Titles here - even being 'nice' on the track - which proves you don't need to be stupidly aggressive to win races and Titles) and I've always loved to fight against them (at least with some of the previous mods, where I was somewhat competitive compared with them - differently than right now, where the mod how it is now, simply didn't fit me and vice-versa) and we had LOTS of amazing, exciting and so much fun fights, where we've ALWAYS left at least 1 car width to each other, NEVER forced one another off the track or did ANY kind of dirty moves (and yes, sometimes incidents still happen(ed) anyway, but they are/were literally INCIDENTS and not some crazy attempt of trying a too risky or barely legal move) and... jah... sometimes you win, sometimes you lose and... THAT'S also part of the fun - so what?! No big deal!!..

So anyway... last, but not least... I still hope that most drivers here could have this 'Having Fun Above All Else' mindset in our future races, where it's OBVIOUSLY ok to be aggressive and etc, but just TRY to NEVER play 'dirty' with the other guys (even if what you're doing is 'legal' by the rules - jah, it can still be 'dirty' anyway) and then winning or losing, it's all good as long as the drivers fighting are all having fun!

Winning should be PART of the fun (even if it's the biggest part) - that's ok.
But it seems to some people, 'fun' means ONLY 'winning' and winning means EVERYthing, so... jah... whatever...

What the....?

Sorry, I didn't read whole of that, just impressed by the amount..